The writer-director onFirst Reformed, his Oscar hopes, and the end of the world.
Save this article to read it later.
Find this story in your accountsSaved for Latersection.
He asks if weve met before and I tell him yes, in 1972.
Schrader soon followed with screenplays forRaging BullandAmerican Gigolo, which he also directed.
He was pretty much on top of the world.
But then came what he called his wilderness years.
Your backstory is one of the best backstories in the history of cinema.
You didnt see a movie til you were 17.
You were aware there was such a thing as movies, right?Yeah.
But I mean, if nobody you know sees a movie, nobody you know talks about it.
And you dont have the media like we do today.
That was just like three blocks away from college.
Everybody from Calvin started going to see these Bergman films,Winter Light,Through a Glass Darkly.
So that was an explosion.
Your head just popped.
Then, very quickly, I started programming films at the college.
St. Marks Place, the Thalia, Bleecker.
And thats how I met Pauline [Kael].
Thats how the whole thing started.
I wouldnt be sitting at this table if it werent for Pauline.
Were gonna stay in touch.
Youre gonna send me everything you write.
Cause she was good friends withColin Young.
And UCLA was just as hard then as it is now.
I had no right to get in there.
Because thats the only way Im gonna get out of here.
She just called up Colin and said, You have to take him.
Thats how I got into film school.
[When I got to UCLA,] I was living in a house with four film students.
I thought they were so declasse.
Cause they were making a biker film for Corman.
It was calledNaked Angels.
They were too declasse, why?
Because they werent remakingLife of Oharuor something like that?Because it was all so vulgar.
It was all so tasteless.
I had [an attitude] basically like Pauline, Well tell you when you make a good film.
Thats not your decision, thats our decision.
My feeling about critics was that they were the arbitrators.
And so, it was, in fact, kind of a superior position than being a filmmaker.
There was a lot of this in literary criticism at the same time.
How do you feel about Kaels review ofHardcore?
I had broken with her at that time.
What happened was, I came up here for Christmas.
I was the film critic at theL.A.
Free Pressat the time, and she was a kind of gatekeeper for film criticism in this country.
So I was at her house, and she said, Theres a couple openings.
But theres also an opening in Seattle, and I think thats perfect for you.
Its a great movie town, a very serious movie town, youll have freedom.
Id like you to take that job.
And I said, Well, tomorrow is Christmas Eve.
Can I have a week to think about it?
She said, No.
I want an answer right now.
I sat there, and I had been thinking about maybe trying my hand at writing a script.
I knew if I went to Seattle, that would be that.
She said, Okay.
About five minutes later I got up and walked out.
I got on the airplane and said, Well, there goes your career.
You just fucked it.
But you would get a phone call.
And shed say, La Chinoise.
Weve gotta get behindLa Chinoise.
But I had a moment in March of 1969 where everything pivoted.
I went to the Laemmle Theater for a critics screening ofPickpocket.
Its only 75 minutes long.
And I saw this film, and two things happened in the 75 minutes.
But it was a bridge of style, not a bridge of content.
And the other thing I realized was that there might be a place for me in the movies.
I just didnt think all that popular entertainment was for me; I cant entertain people that way.
But I look at this film and I say, Okay, he writes in his journal.
And he goes out and he steals something, he writes some more, visits his neighbor.
Writes some more, the cops come and visit him.
I said, I could write a movie like that.
I can do that.
And three years later I wroteTaxi Driver, which is that movie.
I think I actually enjoyedFirst Reformedmore than any of your other films, except maybeBlue Collar.
I mean just as a moviegoing experience.
Its one of the best remakes I ever saw.Whats it a remake of?
I wish you never told me that.
All we do is reassemble our montages.
If you reassemble in an interesting enough way, it will become something new.
The other films dont have that.
And I said, Yeah, I know, I put it in there.
He said, No, no.
Theres not a little, theres a lot.
Because I thought I was making a slow movie.
Its going to take its time, dont rush it.
Then afterward someone said, Thats not a slow movie.
My whole-life favorite of course isFirst Reformed.
But,Mishimais the damnedest thing.
I really nailed that book.
Stylistically, I loveThe Comfort of Strangers.
AndLight Sleepersfull of yearning, yearning, yearning.
Roger volunteered to pick up the check, and Pauline said, Dont you touch that check.
Dont you realize he just sold a screenplay?
That was really the beginning of something, wasnt it?
A gold-rush situation.It started about 67.
And it was particularly the collapse ofHello Dolly!andPaint Your Wagonthat really spooked Hollywood.
Cause they were way over budget.
And its hard to convey now how much insecurity and anger there was about the counterculture.
Hollywood was angry, Sinatra was angry, theyre all angry.
They thought, Its not our world anymore.
And we have no idea how to sell what we sell to these kids.
And Warren Beatty and Julie Christie walked in, in hippie garb.
And he said that you could just see the Red Sea splitting.
The venom steaming out of the room, you know?
And the arrogance of Beatty and Christie.
Rubbing it in their faces: You are out.
So the studios were trying to figure out, How do we sell to the youth market?
And so there was a window there where you could pitch.
And I know how to make money.
And Im gonna make some money for you.
And he said, Theyre so insecure, theyll believe you.
So, I remember when that door opened.
And I also remember exactly the moment it closed, which was in 1978.
His head of market research was way on the other side of the lot.
Barry took this guy from ABC, and put his office right in front of us.
We had to go through this guys office to get to Barry.
It was a signal to everybody, We dont need you to tell us what to make anymore.
We figured it out.
Well tell you now.
So how long did it last?
A couple years?The opening?
About ten years, really.
It opened about 68 and closed about 78.
But then when I really felt it was in 85, cause I went off to Japan to makeMishima.
Did you go toMishimabecauseCat Peoplewas a flop?No, no, no.
I went toMishimato save my life.
When I came back, I made a film calledLight Sleeper.
I had to show it toMike Medavoybecause of the way it was contractually set up.
I really like it.
But you know we dont make that film anymore.
So, what happened to the film?
I mean, it came out.Its an independent film now.
Its not a studio film.
Thats all it takes.
So what do you do about that?
Youre in your little spot, and you give a $1,000 to one viewer.
But its not the same …
This is not truth 24 frames a second.
The fact that theres no center.
Theres no Johnny Carson, theres no Walter Cronkite, theres no Bruce Springsteen.
Theres no fucking center to popular culture.
The atrium where everyone would get together to talk is now dozens of little rooms.
That was part of the conversation.
If it had substance in it, you know.
Its taken 50 years for those opposed to the counterculture to finally win.
To confirm that 1969 could never happen again.
And of course, we could talk for days about the cowboy atmosphere were in now.
Nothing weve learned in the last 100 years is of much value.
What do you mean by that?About filmmaking.
We dont know what a movie is anymore.
What if its a net series?
That is half hours, or 15 minutes.
What if its 115 minutes, you know?
Thats still a movie, isnt it?
Yes it is.Mad Menis a movie.
Its a 79-hour movie.
Why do you think that mightve been?I dont …
I have a feeling that it just seemed too unlike what they do.
They put on a wide variety of stuff.Yeah, I know.
If there had been a person at Netflix or Amazon who said that, they would have bought it.
I mean, do they actually focus on a particular film?Well, Amazon does theatrical releases.
And now Netflix gaveRomaa four-week window.
Yeah, I wanted to ask aboutRoma.
Here youve got a movie thats a strong contender for the best film of the year.
Then all of a sudden everyone can see it for free on Netflix.
So, how does that change the parameters of the situation?It changes and it doesnt.
I dont know if its necessarily better or worse.
The goal of a storyteller or a filmmaker is not to challenge technology, but to exploit it.
It would be the best thing for that story.
Do you think this has something to do with the fall of the art-house cinema?
You have childrens cinema, which works very well in theatrical.
You have teen cinema like horror movies.
And then you have club cinema, which is what we used to call art-house cinema.
Is that the word for it?Thats what I call it.
And so this is becoming a new model for art cinema and its working quite well.
Do you like it?Yeah, I actually do like it.
Im sure when it reopens itll reopen as the club model.
Thats a way in which the theatrical experience is being continued for art cinema.
And also because you make a lot more money off booze than you do off popcorn.
This is an existential problem.
Youve made 24 films.
You build these movies up.
I mean, the most amazing one to have ever been built up wasMishima.
How did I build that?
Even today people ask, How in Gods name did you get that financed?
Ive been an outlier all my life, Im still an outlier.
And continue to have a kind of a resonance.
And it has, obviously, to do with the romantic obsession.
Ive never been nominated for an Oscar.
Youve never been nominated for an Oscar.
Thats kind of strange.You know, you cant really dwell on that.
So do you find it disappointing that your career didnt blow up?
Or do you feel happy with that?No, no, I was very fortunate.
I was very, very fortunate that I had validation, almost from the start.
What I got out ofTaxi Driveris what people work a whole career to get.
Youre involved in a movie that doesnt die.
That hits the bulls-eye of the cultural Zeitgeist.
But in fact, its absolutely freeing.
I didnt need to have my worth as a film worker validated.
And I know people who spent their entire lives desperate for that validation.
The only pressure now is to do good work.
Maybe itll circle around, and maybe it wont.
But no matter how few chips you have left, youve got to stay at the table.
You cant let them make you leave the table.
I thought I was gonna die.
It was a personal film, a film I had written.
I had set it up, and it was taken away by these assholes who didnt love films anymore.
A new group of people had come into the business.
In the past I had never needed final cut.
Because you were dealing with people who liked movies.
You had disagreements, you worked it out.
Now youre dealing with people who not only dont like movies much, they dont even go to them.
They just have formulas.
They fired me as soon as they could.
Brought in their own editor, and put out this exploitation version of a film I wanted to make.
So I said, This is gonna be the end.
My career will end in embarrassment and humiliation.
And what Im really referring to is my clothes, cause hell never get the stains offhisclothes.
And I said, We gotta work together.
But I have to have final cut, because the way we were fucked last time.
I wont call him unless I have final cut.
So now we had final cut.
We could do anything we wanted.
And at the end ofDog Eat Dog, the whole final scene, Nic does a Humphrey Bogart imitation.
Its the last day of shooting, and when we were rehearsing, I hear this Humphrey Bogart imitation.
His character had talked about Bogart earlier, but I always said I could cut that out.
Now, all of a sudden, heisBogart for four minutes.
I said, Nic, we dont have the time to shoot this both ways.
If we shoot it this way, this is the way its gonna be.
And he said, Look, youve been telling me all along to be bold, to take chances.
This character always wanted to be Humphrey Bogart.
If hes dead, he can be Humphrey Bogart.
Lets let him be Humphrey Bogart.
I said, Okay.
I said, No, no.
When youre a movie director, youre like god, right?
Youre working in about half the time you were working in the past.
Directors dont really hang out in trailers anymore.
I shotFirst Reformedin 20 days.
When I began [my career], that was a 45-day shoot.
I got more raw footage in 20 days than I wouldve gotten in 45.
You just shoot, shoot, shoot.
The lighting is so fast, you dont have gels anymore.
Boom, boom, boom, theyre lighting from their iPads.
Is it shot in HD?Yeah.
So the digital world has been good to you so far?Oh I love it.
Actors love it too, because they never get off the stage.
Trailer time can be a killer.
Now you do it once, boom, do it again.
How is the larger digital world treating you?
This democratization of misinformation … this notion that everybodys opinion is as valuable as the next.
And that, if you dont believe something, youre right not to believe it.
If you dont believe in gravity, go for it.
So, how big a crisis is that?Ill put it the other way.
If youre optimistic, you havent been paying attention.
You know who Yuval Noah Harari is?
He wrote the bookSapiens.
Which horseman comes in first?
But we know one of them is gonna come in.
And the odds of our species outliving the century are not very strong.
Dont you think theend ofFirst Reformedis completely optimistic?No.
Seemed that way to me.
And then they decide to be in love anyhow.Yeah, youre just assuming that hes alive.
What do you mean by that?Isnt it very odd that all of a sudden shes there?
And the room is bright?
The room is bright, she suddenly appears, the camera starts swimming around.
Could this not be an ecstatic experience?
Now that you mention it, yeah.
But thats not the way it came to me.Ive planned it both ways.
When we tested it, I would ask people, Is he alive, or is he dead?
Cause I wanted to keep it at 50/50.
So we slightly changed the edit.
I took out the action where she steps into the room.
When you see her step in the room, it makes you think that she actually is there.
But when shes just there, she may be a vision.
Heres my favorite explanation for the ending.
So you have this man in the garden with the cup.
No one is going to take that cup away from him.
So he drinks it.
And then he falls on all fours, and starts disgorging his stomach.
And then God walks in the room.
God, who had never talked to him over the course of the film.
And God says, Reverend Toller, would you like to see what Heaven looks like?
Im going to show you right now.
Heaven looks like one long kiss.
And thats the last thing he sees.
Some years afterTaxi Driverwas released, interpretations starting popping up thatthe endingwas all a dream.
That wasnt what we intended when we shot it.
But, I thought, well, thats fair enough.
I dont have a problem with that.
If you want to interpret it that way, it’s possible for you to.
So when I came to the ending of this one, I said, Lets build it right in.
Lets build it in there so you’re able to interpret it either way.
Therefore I dont know which one it is.
I dont have to say, and I dont even have to know.
Because Ive built it in both ways.
Is it either eternal love or the suicide vest?
I mean, is that the question?Well, I mean, it is an open ending.
And, however you choose to see it is probably the right choice.
You know, somebody like Nic Cage is absolutely convinced that its realistic.
Somebody else is saying that its a vision.
And theyre both right.
Im gonna look up something.
I was just reading an article where someone had a great quote.
So, this is an article in a Christian magazine called Crosswalk.
I mean theres so many movies, TV shows, etc.
Most of my friends on Facebook are involved in criticism, or filmmaking, or the arts.
And whenever they see something that interests them, they send up a flag.
And I do the same.
Some people like to avoid conflict, you dont seem like youre one of em.
Schrader, hes a shit stirrer.
Thats what he does.Yeah, I mean … a little agitas makes the day go better.
As a filmmaker Ive always been an agitator.
I feel likeTaxi Driverwas an agitation, andBlue Collar.
Like the propulsion it takes for a bullet to get out of a gun.
And you have to build up that energy.
Theyre gonna bring you back.
Why wouldnt you make it?
Because of the race thing?Yeah, because you cant win.
Even Spike got drilled.
And in fact I thought I would get flack forFirst Reformed, I was really surprised.
Who was gonna be mad at you?
The Evangelicals?I was there forThe Last Temptation of Christ.
I know how that goes down.
I know we were crucified atLast Temptation, by people who didnt even see the film.
But they never did.
They would never see a movie like this.
Can faith do anything about these three horsemen of the apocalypse youre talking about?I dont think so.
I dont think our gorilla brains are gonna get out of this one.
I think that weve gone about as far as evolution can take us.
And animal cultures do perish.
Things dont necessarily survive.
Whole communities have perished out of stupidity.What happened to the Easter Islanders?
They chopped down all their trees and died.
So do we care if humanity perishes?
Annotations by Britina Cheng.
