The Oscar-winning screenwriter on the Fempire, her Megan Fox therapy breakthrough, andJagged Little Pillthe musical.
Save this article to read it later.
Find this story in your accountsSaved for Latersection.
This split personality is both convenient and, perhaps, necessary.
I now regret not having been a theater kid my entire life, she jokes.
Along the way, the internet seems to have finally come around on Cody.
Theres a specific pop in of woman that triggers people, she says now.
I found a recent interview in which you said social media isnt fun anymore.Its definitely not fun anymore.
Ive been off Twitter since 2013 now.
I dont think my voice is necessary.
I think there are a lot of quirky white women expressing their opinions on Twitter.
You started as a blogger,writing a blog about moonlighting as a stripper in Minneapolis.
Now its something everybody takes for granted.
You had amazing luck with timing, when you could actually become afamous screenwriterfrom blogging.
It wouldnt be done.
It would just be a different backlash.
I would have deserved it, by the way.
Its a valid criticism, for sure.
How do you address that criticism in the stuff that you do now?Oh my God.
Because I certainly have observed my own growth.
Is there anything in particular youre thinking of?I feel likethe bookis really mean-spirited.
I get upset when people read it, actually.
I wouldnt be telling that story now the way that I told it.
I dont think I would tell it at all, to be honest.
I have guilt about that.
Im like the emotional Cronenberg, because all I care about is personal transformation and reckoning with your past.
I thought, Well, lets see how far I can take this.
I went to HBO to pitchUnited States of Tara,and this was beforeJunohad come out.
We dont want this.
You basically created Diablo Cody as a separate person from Brook to con Hollywood.
Who is Diablo to you now?I dont have much of a relationship with Diablo Cody anymore.
One of my proudest moments as a parent was when my oldest son learned to read.
He picked up my Oscar and said, Whos Diablo Cody?
because he had never even heard the name in our house.
Do you have a little, young Brook whos making sure youre staying the course?No.
Grown-up me is making sure I stay the course.
Little Brook is a mean machine that just wants to indulge herself.
Im keeping Little Brook in check.
I just was like a self-indulgent, self-centered artist.
So you had a feeling you were meant for better things.Oh hell yeah.
Instead, Im sure the reaction was like, Oh no.
That bitch was right.
One of the nastiest statements I found was fromOh, yo dont read a nasty statement, yo.
No, thats going to hurt me.
c’mon dont.
Oh, Im sorry.
But it just felt very sour grapes, like somebody…
I dont want to hurt your feelings.
It was not meant like that.No, I know that.
You cant know that Im made of glass.
I know the backlash to your early success must have been super-hard for you.
Youve talked a little bit about how therapy really helped you.
It just feels good to be able to talk about those things.
Theyre like, Fuck you.
You just won an Oscar.Exactly.
But you kept working.I kept working, but Im not on social media.
I dont go anywhere, and theres a reason for that.
I dont want to leave myself vulnerable to attack.
Alanis also faced some backlash.
There is a price on my dignity.
But for Alanis, I think the most painful thing was just losing her anonymity completely.
The producers and Alanis have been trying to get this made for several years.
There are some that I watch and I think,How did the writer do this?
These songs are inane.
You listen to that album: It is cinematic.
The songs are telling stories.
Im lucky with those songs.
She gives you the best notes ever, then she backs off.
So Ive had a ton of creative freedom.
I have found myself sitting in my garage, rewriting Alanis Morissette lyrics.
At the same time, she will let us know if something in a performance isnt working for her.
We hear from her at least once a week.
She used to be more physically present, but she just had a baby so shes nesting.
Alanis is a really good sport.
She was totally down with it from the very first step.
The publicists for the show arent even here, and they just shuddered somewhere.
I dont want anybody to feel excluded, hurt, triggered by this show.
I want people to come and feel good about it.
I know that I cant kindly everybody, but, you know, we have so many experts involved.
We have like an entire task force dealing with this issue.
So I just have to listen to them, keep my own mouth shut.
Im not on any kind of gender journey.
Aside from being a boring-ass cis lady.
I heard the decision to take out the gender questioning was also criticized.
Youre screwed either way on a lot of issues.
Im okay with it because Im old and Ive been through so many controversies in my career.
Ive been through it all, man.
Ive had to apologize to pro-choice people.
I had to apologize for writing about my own experience and triggering people.
One movie of yours that feels like its gotten massive reconsideration isJennifers Body.Yeah.
This is so strange to me.
I love that movie.
Saw it coming like a freight train.
It was like a therapy session.
And Im like, I honestly havent had such moments in therapy.
Megan Fox is a fascinating person.
And in her case, its true.
It sounds like, even more than that, she was really objectified and bullied.Big time.
I feel like ifJennifers Bodycame out now, it would be considered like a feministGet Outmovie.I wish.
You think aboutHustlers; it arrived at this perfect time where audiences are ready to receive it.I loveHustlers.
Should we just talk about theFempirebecause obviously we have to talk about the Fempire.Yeah.
Youre all in your 40s or almost in your 40s now.
How has that relationship shifted?All still friends.
Do you still all get in a limo and go to each others openings?I wish.
Theres a lot of children now.
I think the Fempire collectively has seven children.
Everybody is older and busy, and there just isnt as much time for popping bottles.
What does that support look like?Its texts.
Its just being as present for the failures as the successes.
I think weve all experienced some disappointments, except maybe Liz Meriwether, who just succeeds.
Its just a lovely group to be a part of.
Why arent there more models like this?Thats a good question.
Youre still the last woman to have won an Original Screenwriting Oscar.Is that true?
Now no one would dare to say that.
It was tremendously difficult to convince people to invest in unlikable female protagonists when I started.
I cant imagine a show likeFleabagsucceeding a decade ago the way it has now.
Its fascinating how much Ive watched things change in just 15 years.
That makes me happy.
Now, weve broadened our palate for unlikable women ever so slightly.
It totally holds up, by the way.You think so?
Oh, yes.I rewatched it recently, and I hadnt seen it since it came out.
I dont typically rewatch my stuff because it makes me want to die.
I could not believe how bleak it was.
Maybe she wouldnt do a third.
But I really like her a lot, and obviously shes insanely talented.
WritingTully, I was able to hold her in my mind.
Jason and Charlize are very close.
I dont think anybody else could have been Mavis [inYoung Adult].
Dont do that!I dont.
But there was a time that I did, or binge-eating fast food like an animal.
I send everything to him.
A lot of first-time writers arent even going to get invited to set.
He had me there every day.
Its a relationship built on trust and telepathy, and its very nice.
I kind of feel like its sort of unexpected energy that he brings that makes it work.
Hes an interesting dude.
Im very excited about thisGhostbustersmovie.
Is this going to be sensitiveGhostbusters?Hes extremely sensitive.
Hes very thoughtful, and I am very decisive actually.
I write from my gut.
Jason is considering things always.
It seems hard for a director to be non-decisive.Well, no, hes decisive, too.
Thats always a good thing, especially when youre working with a limited budget.
Im curious aboutParadiseand what made you want to direct it yourself.I didnt want to direct at all.
I had no more business directing than waking up and deciding to be a nuclear physicist.
I have no depth perception.
I hate telling people what to do.
I am happiest alone and writing.
You will get to control your vision.
But I always got to control my vision.
So, for me, there was no value add.
I didnt enjoy it.
I guess I just picked that one because it felt like the time to try it.
To be honest, the pregnancy wasnt the most difficult part.
It was having a toddler.
Im not one of those women whos ever been really great at staffing up and delegating tasks.
I didnt bring a nanny or anything.
I just brought my mother with me.
Youve said part of the reason you started doing more TV is because it keeps you in L.A. Im a superwoman, and I just do it.No.
I wake up every day and I have to pick one.
I have to say, Am I going to prioritize my career today or my kids?
You cant do both.
I am a bad mother right now.
And thats okay, because Im providing for them.
By the way, Ive never been delusional to thinkTullys going to be a huge hit.
Nobody cares about women.
Nobody cares about postpartum depression.
If this was something that affected men in the same numbers, maybe it would have been a hit.
But why is that?
Let the woman be in a band.
To me, a female rocker Republican was kind of hard to digest.
Do you feel like shes a familiar midwestern archetype to you?I know people like Ricki.
So, for me, it was just realistic.
You do meet people who present as rebels who are politically conservative.
Its actually pretty common.
I will never forget the night I realized that she was doing it.
I imagine that part of what attracted her is the complicated character.I think so.
I think the opportunity to just sing and play guitar was appealing to her.
Of course she became really good at playing guitar like overnight.
I guess she probably got lots of training.
Rick Springfield was probably helping her out.I think she got her first lesson from Neil Young.
Jonathan Demme hooked that up.
Who, by the way, is the most magnificent human being.
We were so simpatico.
We would go out after shooting and talk and talk and drink martinis.
I miss him so much.
Music is clearly so important to the stuff that you do.
They sing 867-5309/Jenny, which people seemed to like.
It worked in the end.
The director isnt going oftentimes to like that song.
And Ill put the most random shit in my scripts, and Jason Reitmans like, Perfect.
Well check that we get that.
I have scripts that have never seen the light of day.
Ive written a few pilots that have been produced and never went to series.
Are there any that youre particularly attached to?Theres this British show calledRaised by Wolvesthat Caitlin Moran created.
I wrote an American adaptation of it for ABC, and I really loved that pilot.
It didnt go to series.
I dont really know if thats what ABC is trying to do.
One project of yours that I read about and was like, Oh my God.
I really wish this existed.Are you going to saySweet Valley High?
Because I wish that existed too.
It was supposed to be a musical.And incredible songs were written for it byTom Kitt.
Then what happened?Oh, just Universal.
They just didnt like it.
It was kind of likeBooksmart, but it definitely wasnt as good asBooksmart.
It was probably shitty.
I dont know what happened with that one.
I couldnt even tell you who the characters were.
I think someone was a squirter.
I was trying to think of a good novelty plate for my car.
I drive this yellow Dodge Challenger.
And I was like, Oh, Ive got a good one.Squirter.
Can you imagine me getting tailed by the nastiest men on the 101 every day?
I feel like most people would not know what that was in reference to.You dont think so?
Maybe in L.A.Maybe I can get a custom bumper sticker explaining it.
Im curious about writing for TV versus writing for movies.In my case, movies get made.
So, thats the big difference.
TV, Ive really had an uphill battle.
Well, you had two shows.
Thats pretty good.Thats cool.
I always wanted to have the watercooler show.
That was the one thing that was genuinely thrilling about the experience withJuno being part of the cultural dialogue.
That hasnt really happened for me.
I dont think people were having, like, urgent Monday-morning discussions aboutUnited States of Tara.
And people loveOne Mississippiwhove seen it, but its not part of the greater cultural conversation.
So, for me, thats what I want.
I dont know if that will ever happen.
Do you think you’ve got the option to plan that?
I feel like nobody believed inSuccessionthe first season.
I loved it from the beginning.Yeah, me too.
I was there from the beginning.
You cant make a Tomlette without breaking some Gregs, which is my favorite line in the world.
Yeah, they are allowed to go there.
By the way, I fucking loveSuccession.
yo do not set this up like
I think its very clear that you loveSuccession.
But it is totally true.Big time.
I watchedSuccession, Im like, Did I write this?
Youve gotten way less slangy.
I wonder ifSuccessionwill bring back a desire for wordplay.I hope so.
God knows I wish I could.
I didnt stop being slangy of my volition.
I was just tired of being mocked for it.
Honestly, I should have doubled down, but I didnt.
Are you kidding me?
I was just so thrilled to be playing the game I didnt care at all.
That cant be replicated for anybody.
You should just come up with another name.I could start over.
Dont think I havent considered this.
They have no idea its you.It would be funny if I wrote aSuccessionspec.
Does it feel just like luck what shows get picked up?A lot of it is casting.
Especially since now were in a world where we have A-listers doing television.
Youre competing with projects that have Jennifer Aniston attached.
Youre competing with the Paul Rudd show.
I have a project right now I cant talk about yet, but its a familiar piece of IP.
Ive been thinking to myself as Im writing it,Okay.
What decade is it originally from?The 90s.
Is it90210?The O.C.
?I dont know if you would ever guess.
This is one that would surprise you, but its in the world of things that are getting made.
Ill put it that way.
I think its comfort food.
I think its like tomato bisque.
Hopefully, its not too meta.
c’mon tell me itsBuffy.I would get crucified if I didBuffy.
I got approached about thatHeathersTV show that they did.
I was like, Fuck no, because I loveHeathersand people will hate me.
That show got a lot of criticism.
Turns out a show about teen suicide and blowing up a school might not play well right now.
Maybe the context is a little different now.Yeah, the context is changing constantly.
I do thinkJunois a …
I dont know why I keep talking aboutJuno.
Because abortion didnt feel under threat then?It didnt feel threatened in the least.
It really surprised me.I mean, think about how prevalent that was then.
Think aboutThe40-Year-Old Virgin, how there were those runs of How I know youre gay.
People were just laughing their asses off.
That was just part of the dialogue.
By the way, Im not making excuses for myself.
It does feel like weve gotten more conscious about how a joke might make other people feel.Im happy.
The more sensitive and quote-unquote PC people become the better is the way I see it.
Im thoroughly on this side of evolution and growth.
Do you worry that your kids will get too L.A?Constantly.
Life is too easy for them, even the weather.
I feel I was forged in snow.
Every day, its warm.
Theyre encouraged to express themselves and be inquisitive and not be ashamed of their bodies.
We talk openly about sex and how its okay and, I mean, give me a break.
you oughta give them some struggle.What they need is a little bit of shame.
Theyre not having a shame-based upbringing and I think it might be to their detriment.
Some things should be repressed.A little bit, right?
I have made parenting mistakes, by the way.
I have regrets about that.
In your early interviews you would often say you dont have ambitions.I didnt.
Do you think thats self-protective?No.
I dont know why.
Ive just never had a really strong drive.
I work because I enjoy it, you know?
So much of it has just been selfish.
Id be doing writing even if I wasnt being paid to do it.
I dont have a lot of big dreams beyond what Ive accomplished.
I am really not an alpha female.
So I think people wanted that from me.
Create big things.Thats not really my inclination.
Is Jill Soloway that kind of person in your mind?
She was producer ofUnited States of Tara.Yeah, I fucking love Jill.
Its hilarious to me in retrospect, because Im like, See?
You guys were wrong.
How does Youre not allowed to direct this actually play out?The producers said no.
Thats how it goes down.
I didnt have enough power.
I wasnt the showrunner.
Nobody listens to me anyway.
Ill say that an outspoken female creator is definitely up against something.
People dont like that.
That includes women, by the way.
For some reason, people are willing to deal with angry Dad, but angry Mom is terrifying.
Speaking of things that stress out publicists, how was your working relationship with Louis C.K.
I had a cordial relationship with him.
I wasnt involved with him day-to-day.
I dont know him socially.
I havent spoken to him since all the shit went down.
I was like,Phew.
Well, now youre in the hot seat.Now Im in the hot seat.
Obviously you dont want that association.
But you know whats interesting is everyone already kind of knew.
I feel like that story had been regurgitated for years.
So, its fascinating to me that suddenly people gave a shit.
I had heard that story before I went in to pitch with him.
Did you two talk about that?Yeah, we talked about it, for sure.
Do you want to drag them out now?I dont want to talk about that stuff.
I was this known sex worker.
So the energy surrounding me in those meetings was often a Youre one of the guys kind of vibe.
I wasnt wife material.
I dont know how else to describe the vibe.
The attitude surrounding me was, Shes an ex-stripper.
We cant shock her.
We cant offend this one.
In a career context, I was just in survival mode.
I honestly would have put up with anything to have the opportunity to stay at the table.
I thought, My reputation precedes me, I dont deserve to be treated with respect.
Im just lucky to be here.
But then Ive also obviously have been in experiences where I was intimidated or harassed or grabbed or whatever.
I mean, we all have.
I get not speaking up.
I dont know I would be that brave.
But then does it feel like youre letting these dudes off the hook?You know what?
I would be punished in equal measure.
Are you kidding me?
Im going to go to town on menopause.
Thats going to be my opus.
There is noAmerican Beautyfor women.
Wheres the female Lester Burnham?
Have you written this yet?No.
I drive a fucking muscle car.
I am deep in crisis.
Youre going to go back on the stripper pole now.Oh my God.
And I would, too.
Its a very real thing, especially for me because my youngest is going to kindergarten next year.
My entire 30s I was just having kids.
Now I am looking around and remembering who I used to be before all that went down.
Obviously Im not done parenting, but Im done with the diapers and the strollers and all that stuff.
Its thrilling, and its scary.
Im like, Who am I?
Oh, I remember who I was.
I was 31 when I got pregnant with Marcello.
I almost feel like Im regressing to 31 again, like none of that ever happened.
I hope that my 40s are fruitful.
Im so fucking defeatist.
Im just like,This is it.
Take me out back and shoot me.
This interview has been edited and condensed from two conversations.
